Monday, August 08, 2005

"Opinions No Longer Required"


It saddened me today to learn that blog buddy JDC, of The Wildwoods (link to right) was targeted as a woman hating, right wing bigot by Kid Sis In Hollywood, and her patrons. To read the entire discussion, go over to JDC's blog, in which he shows the full unabridged conversation word for word, and how he goes from innocently defending a movie and it's creators, to being put on the defensive by a gaggle of politically correct automatons who I can assure you, will continue to lambast him in his absence like the elitists they are.

I like Kid Sis In Hollywood's blog. I frequent it 4-5 times a week, in fact. I linked to it. But this type of fascism does not belong on blogs in which comments are supposedly encouraged. There are so many holier than thou comments over there, it makes you wonder if the author even lives in this world anymore. I was so disappointed to read some of the responses from the blogs visitors , and the author herself, and frankly, embarrassed. If you didn't want to start a dialogue with new people checking in, why make the comments section accessible to the public?

Her blog now goes into the Cloaked Fascist link page. I'm sure she'll care little that my meager blog has such things to say. I'm sure they don't even know I exist. In fact, the blog will probably get more hits now. But I believe someone was unfairly persecuted, and I'm naming names, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

38 Comments:

The Moviequill said...

Wow, that is disheartening to hear. I was attacked personally by the same blogger on another issue.. I guess we all are not as close a community as I hoped (by the way, want the Guiness coasters I borrowed back?)
Sorry, my humour always shows it's head at times like these

JD said...

I guess the blogs are just taking after society in general. I blog to escape the judgemental, overtly pC society, and it seems it's just as prevelent here.

As always, humor is welcome at all times on my blog.

TN_Dreamer said...

some people overreact. especially if they feel threatened (& his argument may have been more logical & less emotional resulting in that feeling)

Matt Reynolds said...

Fight War! Not Wars!

Peace

Matt "The Drippy Hippy" Reynolds

A Sheltered Town said...

I've had more than my share of people absolutely hating me.

John Donald Carlucci said...

JD, I love the pic for the blog entry!

JDC

Anonymous said...

Wow. So, which opinions are no longer required? Those that express regret at the lingering racism and sexism of Western society? (Have we had enough talk of that, already, in your opinion?) Why does it bother you that others talk about this sort of thing? How does it harm you? Really -- I don't get it.

Surely you don't believe we live a society that is completely free of racism and sexism. And I'm sure you'd say that racism and sexism are wrong, on general principle. So why isn't it okay to talk about how to address this societal problem?

Not everybody has to be directly engaged with solving societal problems, but it does seem to me that an awareness on the part of the of the general population isn't a bad idea.

-- An awareness of, say, anti-Semitism, might be useful in Europe, where 6 million Jews perished. Would like to avoid that happening again. One way is to make sure we remember how that came to pass. Right?

You have a lovely image of "Rage Against the Machine," a band which often features anti-racism lyrics, and yet you call those who engage in discussion of multicultural politics "elitist" "right wing" "holier than thou" "pc" "fascists"? Strange mix. I have my own problems with PC culture. I think it changes language without addressing the underlying issues. What does it matter what you call me, if you're still a bigot underneath? Still, I don't like it when people call my husband a "sand n*gger" because he's a Muslim.

If you've got a way to work out a way for us to solve the problems of racism without talking about it, please let me know. Me, I've really got no idea, except to keep at it.

JD said...

Of course we are all well aware of racism and sexism. So how does initiating an open dialogue hurt that? In my mind, one can't make blanket statements without contemplating the other side, which was clearly occuring during the infamous Aristocrats one sided debacle. Do you disagree with a free exchange of ideas? Was JDC's opinion not worthy of discussion because it wasn't in tune with the opinions by the majority of the posts? In my opinion, that is turning a blind ignorant eye to the problem. Pointing out that there may not have been any racism at work is not a racist comment, nor is it a fact. It's an alternate opinion, one that has merit. And this is what the PC syndrome has created-a man has an honest opinion, which is just as likely, or moreso, to be correct as the more extreme opinion, yet is shouted down until we get the intimations that it's because he's a man, a troll and a racist. How is that discussing the problems in an open light? To me, that's just as bad as being a racist. Claiming everyone is a bigot because they say maybe, just maybe, Penn and Teller are not racists is a real possibility, so why doesn't that deserve to be heard? Because the PC sect deems everything racist, everything sexist and everything anti-gay to the point where they ruin the true arguments. People are tired of being labeled a bigot for something as simple as expressing an opinion on a movie. A movie, which by the way, had an original 4 1/2 hour cut before it was edited down to it's current running time. Maybe there were more comics of color or different sexual preferences that didn't make the cut because they weren't funny with that particular material? Maybe there weren't. But I would suggest finding that out before calling racist! Sexist! and gay bashers! It's tiresome. One side should not have all the dialogue and shout down anyone who opposes. That is fascism. Disagree?

You have a lovely image of "Rage Against the Machine," a band which often features anti-racism lyrics, and yet you call those who engage in discussion of multicultural politics "elitist" "right wing" "holier than thou" "pc" "fascists"? Strange mix. I have my own problems with PC culture.

Again, you missed the point entirely. There was no discussion, just a blanket statement. The discussion ceases to be an open discussion when an opinion is shouted down. How is what JDC said stopping this discussion? If anything, he's enhancing it. If you believe a multicultural, political discussion should only include one side, I have to question you as to how that's effective?

By the way, I never called anyone 'right wing'. I believe JDC was called a right wingerthough. And you're welcome to post here any time and exchange ideas, even if I don't agree. I may just learn something. Or I may teach you a thing or two. I am not so set in my angst ridden ways, like some other bloggers, that I become bitter and defensive when my opinions or motives are questioned. Here, on this blog, it is true freedom, not "free speech, just watch what you say".

JD said...

By the way, "opinions no longer required" was in quotes because I was satirizing that other blogger. I wasn't saying opinions no longer required.

TN_Dreamer said...

woo-hoo, jd. excellent retort.

Anonymous said...

"People are tired of being labeled a bigot for something as simple as expressing an opinion on a movie."

Yeah, I get it. And I guess I'm tired of being called a PC femi-nazi (a la Rush Limbaugh) for suggesting that more women could've been represented in the film. It's an honest criticism, one that is as valid as yours. Looks like we're at an impasse here.

I wasn't actually addressing the recent blog freak session. I really don't know what happened there -- not my blog.

Re: the RATM picture. So, anti-racist PC people are the Machine? We're in control of society? Just like we have the White House and the House and Senate.

We DO have the universities. But that's it, buddy. Feeling pretty lonely around this country as a freedom-lovin' hippie-do liberal.

So, if liberal PC people are the Machine, and we're running the country, then who is on the other side? Hm. Free thinkers, like the KKK? They hate PC stuff.

TN_Dreamer said...

what, anon? I understood right up until the pic part. the pic is included for the same reason you thought it was a "strange mix." bc RATM is against racism and hatred. for free thinking. just like JD and just like JDC. they never called anyone names (facism in the sense of "uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and CENSORSHIP to forcibly suppress political opposition" not right-wing conservatism) & it's unfair for others to think they did just bc they have a differing opinion.

try reading this blog again without the emotional angst & you might be able to understand where they're coming from.

JD said...

Yeah, I get it. And I guess I'm tired of being called a PC femi-nazi (a la Rush Limbaugh) for suggesting that more women could've been represented in the film. It's an honest criticism, one that is as valid as yours. Looks like we're at an impasse here.

But see, I disagree we're at an impasse. I agree with you on that point. If you assumed I wouldn't, then maybe we are at an impasse. You're well within your right to make that claim, or any claim. However, if I offered another take on it, in a friendly discussion, would you cut me off and delete my posts because you disagreed? Probably not, right? Well that's what we're discussing here.

The machine is any entity that holds down another entity by silencing/censoring (by any means necessary) said entity. I thought it was apt in this situation.

JD said...

Thanks TN ( I almost said thanks honey, but I didn't want to insult any gun toting neo-feminists:) )

JD said...

By the way, anonymous, it's is now safe to uncloak yourself. You are not insulting to me. Even if you were, I'd prefer to lambast you by name! :-p

TN_Dreamer said...

no, prob. as a "freedom-lovin' hippie-do liberal" gun-toting non-feminist-feminist, I feel it is my duty to speak up when men are getting hammered by other women (if undeserved. if deserved, gimme that hammer, baby. my turn.)

& anon is Kid Sis: "And I guess I'm tired of being called a PC femi-nazi (a la Rush Limbaugh) for suggesting that more women could've been represented in the film." then goes on to say "I really don't know what happened there -- not my blog." which is INTERESTING considering no one ever said the original spat was with a neo-fem in the first place or that it was about the lack of women present.

JD said...

Ah, well in that case, welcome evil one!

John Donald Carlucci said...

I'm a little sad that this argument has moved here. Debate is one thing, but this is never debated because people keep taking it as a personal attack, instead of a discussion.

I asked for a closer examination before painting the film with a wide brush.

Even NN, the other person involved, came to my site and apologized. She had nothing to apologize for because she had every right to bark back. Show me what I said in a different light and I will reconsider.

Delete my messages and bash me for being a man (which had nothing to do with the argument and I can't defend myself against cuz I am) do not make an argument.

I've contacted Penn to see if I can dig anymore info on the subject because this is a creator that doesn't deserve to be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

I've noticed that a number of boards have disabled the anon feature and as a result and that is good. Istand by my remarks and others should also.

I still like Kid, but I don't respect her anymore. Maybe I shouldn't have been so ticked in some of my later blog messages, but I don't like the responses on her blog from Sis and the many readers who admit that they haven't even read the messages.

JDC

John Donald Carlucci said...

Plus, why is she posting here when you are, according to her site, my gullible readers and good riddance to you all.

Those notes were not edited, but I can't fight the claim. She can insult and slam me all she wants - then comes and cries to you when she is called a femi-nazi. You weren't called that because of the film, you were called that because of your remarks and actions concerning comments made. And your making an issue that the comments that question you only come from men. You made an issue of sex when there wasn't one - AGAIN.

JDC

"INTERESTING. Someone is actually using his blog to smear my name, and for "proof" posted ABRIDGED comments from this website after he'd deleted them here so he could change them with impunity. Edited to make himself look good, and to slam myself and my reader and make blanket accusations at us that we're man-hating fascists. Wow. Thank God he and his gullible readers are gone now. My favorite part is that he sent me his screenplay to read a few days ago. Hmmmmm...."

"I do think it's interesting that I've only had this problem with men here. To my recollection, a poster claiming to be a woman has never told me I'm wrong or tried to change my opinions or argue me down into the ground."

John Donald Carlucci said...

I also never post anon.

JDC

JD said...

Anonymous: I have to add something I forgot. Nowhere did I say Liberal PC people. I have no idea if you're liberal or not. If you are, so what? I don't care about that. I'm conservative on some issues, and liberal on others. I disagree with both sides almost all the time. Anyone can be obscenely PC. My argument is that it hurts more than it helps. Please don't bring in the liberal/conservative angle. I certainly am not as cut and dry as to assume I knew what every person under each guise stood for.

JD said...

JDC: I hear you. It's ridiculous. That being said, I don't think Anonymous is Kid Sis. She doesn't even know this blog exists. She never linked back, so maybe it truly is an anonymous reader? Oh well... don't worry about the debate, or sermon, being moved here. I can more than hold my own. Frankly, I don't mind a little interaction peppered with ill intent here and there. :)

Anonymous said...

All right, I'm NN. I'm uncloaked. That's who has been posting on the PC code issue. I do it because I find the topic pretty interesting and wonder what you all think about it.

Yes -- just a nerd. A nerdy nerd (NN). I'm not acutally interested in blogging issues or the weird stuff that went down between you all. (Sorry.)

The strange mix, TN_Dreamer, was about the list of names "elitist" "right wing[er]" "holier than thou" "pc" "fascists." Typically, we get PC intellectual elitists together, then right wingers with holier than thou (religious zealots?), and facists, I guess you're right, they're usually militant (so... they belong with anybody who has a strong opinion? Fascism reminds me of Mussolini and Hitler, though. Not liberals.)

Anyway, to answer JD in a roundabout way, I guess I think the problem with PC codes isn't that they suppress freedom (even through self-censorship), it's that they're pointless.

Person A says: "All them 'spics are taking are jobs and are welfare dollars."

Person B says: "All Mexicans are taking are jobs and are welfare dollars."

No matter what word is used, the sentiment expressed is idiotic. So PC codes change racism only on the face of things.

I think the idea, originally, was that if you could get people to think about the WORDS they were using, you could get them to think about the IDEAS they were expressing. Sadly, this has not turned out to be the case.

But I think all of us liberals out here are feeling pretty defeated. I believe that as a member of this society, I have the right and the responsiblity to address the wrongs I see in society, but lately, I'm just not sure how to do it.

If you have ideas, JD, that's great. Please share. But if you ask me (and I know ya didn't), I think it's not enough just to be anti-PC. You've got to be pro-something else.

So let's have it!

NN

John Donald Carlucci said...

You are right of course, ""And I guess I'm tired of being called a PC femi-nazi (a la Rush Limbaugh) for suggesting that more women could've been represented in the film."". Seemed pretty close to the mark.

Maybe others see this issue - maybe it IS an issue.

No one thinks the world is cotton candy and sunshine (a combo I don't like). There are issues everywhere in the world and right here at home. I just would like to side on the "more informed side before making assumptions".

JDC

Anonymous said...

It's great that you're investigating the matter, JDC. I look forward to hearing if Penn and Teller thought about this issue, but had some troubles or whatever getting enough women and people of color. Maybe they'd even have something interesting to say about why they had trouble finding enough others and getting them involved.

The numbers are there. The question is why. So, let's see what they say.

NN

John Donald Carlucci said...

"Yes -- just a nerd. A nerdy nerd (NN)."

I always wondered what that stood for! Everyone is feeling defeated NN. I consider Canada every day as an alternative because I wonder if this country has gone too far.

When the sight-impaired picket the Mr. Magoo movie. When Italians complain about gangsters in films (I am one and I think it is idiotic - we need to own our own history too).

PC may have been a good idea, but has been perverted to support whatever agendas most people have. cynical, but true.

Look at the fights over Florida univ names and mascots. Who cares? We have a pretty corrupt recruiting system and a society that places more value on a touchdown than a term paper.

Sometimes I want to read a book with out being told the writer was a racist (Lovecraft) or see a movie without the rest being brought to up. Maybe it is head-in-the-sand time, but I'm tired of the world at times too.

I can only be a good man (I try very hard) and think good thoughts (difficult too). You can also only change those that want to change. I try to do it in my writing and in my art.

Which was what pissed me off when Sis held up my script and me for ridicule. It is a tender subject at the moment.

I write women as leads, I like women a lot, and am not intimidated (unless I want to ask them out) by them. I have a lot of baggage, but those are part of the package.

JDC

JD said...

JDC nailed it on the head.

John Donald Carlucci said...

NN
Thanks for clearly stating your feelings and thoughts on the matter (or on any matter). All we have are words on the Internet and you provide a different view to consider.

Consider this...

Maybe they did choose to be guy heavy in the movies (gay doesn't play in because no one knows for sure who in the film might be gay anyway - nor need you). Would that be so bad? It wasn't a political statement, but the film was shoot over two years with a camcorder whenever they ran into friends. It didn't really evolve into this film until later and they did have a 4 and 1/2 cut at one point (that means even MORE footage exists).

I have nights where I want to just hang with the boys - couldn't this have been nights with the boys? Patton Olswalt does his commedy tours and it is made up of male comics. Pauly shore (I hate using the example) did the same thing with his tour. Couldn't this just be an innocent "boys event"? No one says the same things can't be done by the female comics.

I'm not trying to justify, but there aren't a lot of girls that want to hang with my gang when we sit in a nice rest and geek out. It would be GREAT to have a girl join us over ice tea and death-by-chocolate and tell us why comicbooks are dying or how much fun the last Jackie Chan film was. I would kill for Gail Simone to join us for lunch.

Maybe, or maybe not.

JDC

JD said...

Welcome NN, by the way. Glad you decided to jump on board. Officially anyway. :)

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I hear you. Canada sounds better every day.

I know it seems like it's silly to picket stupid crap and talk issues to death when are soldiers are dying in Iraq, but I have to wonder (all Pollyanna-ish) if it does do some good, now and again.

For instance, I get a lot of questions about my sweetheart. He's a Muslim. A Turk. People want to know if he beats me or if there are roads where he comes from - or just camels - and how can I call myself a feminist and be with a Muslim man (of all things!) and why are all Muslims terrorists? And I respond. One at a time. It's a pain in my ass. But I have to believe it does some good to the people who hear me say what I have to say.

Then maybe when they turn on the TV and see Iraq, for a split second, they think about those dead Iraqi civilians as people just like them -- not wife-beating, camel-riding, terrorists. You know? It's all I can do.

NN

Anonymous said...

Hm, JDC. I think a boys night out is great. And boys films are good, too.

They could tag is as such, though. Instead of presenting it as a documentary of all comedians, they could call it a documentary of male comedians. They didn't do that. They deliberately (I would imagine) included SOME women.

It does go back to the bigger issue of women getting equal representation on film. So, this film becomes a hot-button for a societal ill, whether they intentionally meant to exclude or not, whether it was the right thing to do in this particular film or not. Questions about prejudice so often fall on the side of generalities. Things get lost. Like asking Penn and Teller why this happened -- a perfectly logical thing to do, which you thought of, while the rest of us were furiously engaged in politico debates.

NN

JD said...

Well, really NN, that happens with any couple. If you are white(I don't know) and you dated a black man, what do you think the comments would be? Pretty similar probably. And , if I can be honest, Muslims here need to speak up and form some sort of anti-terrorist movement of their own, if there isn't one already. What we see are Muslim men and women blowing themselves up. We don't see some red haired scottish man doing it. There's of course a stigma associated with all Muslims now, which is unfortunate. But I believe the Muslim population must become more vocal, because silence just gives more fuel to the fire.

And all this move to Canada talk...yuck. Give me Amsterdam or Italy if I'm fleeing my country, but I really don't consider that an option. I'm here to stay. I can try to make a difference, but if I don't should I bail?

Anonymous said...

No -- we don't see Scottish men blowing themselves up, but we do see Irishmen getting themselves into terrorism quite a little bit... at least in recent history.

So, we have the IRA. And then there's the Basque (sp?)region in Spain. And the weirdos from Michigan, where I am, who blew up Oklahoma City. How easily we forget.

We forget what we don't see. I wonder if we saw more stuff on TV from the viewpoint of Muslims, we'd have a different picture of the world. But for now, it's one question at a time, for me.

If my sweetheart were black, there'd be all different questions, but I have no doubt they'd be equally insidious.

NN

John Donald Carlucci said...

Then again, maybe the Muslim stance is not getting enough coverage either. I would love to see Muslim material dealt with in film (action, scifi, and fanatsy).

The only one that comes to mine is the Pitch Black series.

JDC

John Donald Carlucci said...

Scottsmen don't blow stuff up anyway - you can't understand them. It all a burrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Great, now I'm in trouble.

Am I right in thinking I just heard the IRA saying they would no longer use voilence as a tool for change? I believe I heard this the other week.

JDC

JD said...

But the IRA and spaniards are not crashing into our backyard with jet liners on national tv. That's the point. We only now are so questioning of Muslims because the attacks are and have happened on our grounds. I'd say that makes our perception a little different. If my Italian family and I decided we were going to kill every Irish person we saw, and did some extensive damage, you think Irish people would be more concerned with Italians, or all white people? Of course there would be no trust with Italians. I mean to me, it's human nature. Seeing is believing. If I get bit and horrifically disfigured by a Pit Bull three different times in my life, how am I when I walk buy another? My natural reaction is caution with all dogs, but a Pit Bull would just plain terrify me at that point.

And don't worry. If you think there aren't people all over those militia folk in the mid west, I can assure you, they are tapped and watched to the limit of the law, and well past the limit.

Anonymous said...

Yeah -- I think the IRA (once again) has given up violence. Let's hope it's for good.

I agree, JD. There's something else going with Muslims nowadays. Looks like it's shaping up to be some kind of a holy war, if you ask me.

We Americans got tuned in after 9/11, but believe me, the people in Israel can tell you terrorism was a problem long before that.

But I can tell you that not all Muslims are terrorists.

The other thing I can say is that I think there are valid political issues that need to be dealt with in Israel, Kashmiri region, Chechen Republic, Indonesia, etc. They need to be dealt with WITHOUT violence, but somebody, some time, has got to start listening to Muslims and taking their side seriously. That's what I think.

NN

JD said...

I agree. But am too tired to type a full response. Just take my word for it. )

You guys are tiring me out today.